Tynwald Day Tag Tidy and the Tolkien Kerfuffle of 2012!

[curiouswombat]

I had today off work - it is Tynwald Day - our equivalent of July 4th, more or less.

I fear I did not go to Tynwald to hear the laws being promulgated.... I spent the day being fairly lazy; it was the first not-raining day for ages, and I did some washing, hung it out, sat reading outdoors for a while, and then went shopping. S2C spent the day in bed, as he was at work last night and tonight, and D-D was busy with friends. I was happy with my own company - life at work the past three days was hectic and mentally tiring.

But I have also spent time tidying up my tags, so that all the Returnverse stories are now actually tagged 'Returnverse' as well as with their individual names - just in case anyone wants to read them here. Although, to be honest, it is probably easier to do so at TtH or Faerie. But I feel so much more organised for having done it!

Within the Tolkien fandom there has been a very polite and restrained kerfuffle - at least by the standards of some other fandoms I could mention... resulting in the organiser(s) of the big awards event pulling the plug on everything.

This is a bigger problem than some of the similar things in Buffydom, for example, as the MEFAs had eaten all other awards up - they are the only ones. Or were. It was a very short lived kerfuffle, too - from the first mention of a new ratings system - which is what annoyed people - to the 'Thank you and Goodbye, this Group/Community is now closed' posts took less than a week, I think!

I really think those involved with the organisation must have been pretty stressed out by running something so big, before anyone questioned the new rules, so that it was almost a relief to them to take their ball and go home. Otherwise it would either have been resolved or died down...

On the community that had sprung up about two days before that, to discuss the rules changes, someone basically said "OK - there's no point in just going 'Oh Dear...' Do something about replacing them!" So, being curious, I have found myself following it all, chipping in here and there, and am now fascinated by the way that a group of over 40 people are getting themselves into task forces, discussing policy, categories, ratings, finance and so on in an intelligent and organised fashion...

And you know me - can't keep out of something like that - so have joined a task force, or maybe two.

If anyone in the Tolkien fandom is interested the community is HERE. I really hope it will all come together - even just watching all the workings being done in public is fascinating.

Comments

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I really think those involved with the organisation must have been pretty stressed out by running something so big, before anyone questioned the new rules, so that it was almost a relief to them to take their ball and go home. Otherwise it would either have been resolved or died down...

I expected resistance, a fight perhaps, and a mutual resolution. I did not expect the level of fragility mixed with rigidity that I encountered. It took me a few days to figure out there were layers upon layers on things that caused that. I feel bad to see the end of an era. Yet, their relief is palpable.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

It is much too late now, but it seems to me that what was required was to say '1-6 will remain as it is already coded in,' except that it looks as if poor Aranel Took was having problems making it work anyway,but... 'however we will greatly simplify each grade and trust everyone to be honest.' Maybe a few more baubles and bows, but most would have settled for it for now.

I wondered if I was imagining that it might be a relief to some or all of the organisers, but you obviously felt the same thing.

[ningloreth.livejournal.com]

Apart from the time you nominated The Little Prince -- and it must have been so hard to find something of mine that was eligible! -- I have always seen the MEFAs as forbidden territory, precisely because of the ratings restriction business. It always annoyed me, because it was just encouraging all those people who assumed that sex=badfic.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

It always annoyed me, because it was just encouraging all those people who assumed that sex=badfic.

This annoyed a great many people - and over time it had caused a grey area to develop where stories with clear sex scenes had been nominated and some had gone on to win (ahem...Pure Morning...) whereas others had been eliminate. This was, to a large extent, why new rules were introduced. But rather than take the obvious step of saying we will introduce a category for higher rated stories as well, they tried to write more and more complex ratings. These were what caused all the fuss; partly because they were very ambiguous despite trying to clarify things - there was the question (I am only slightly paraphrasing here...) 'is the sex/violence/bigotry/language/any one of 20 other debatable things an integral part of the plot or just there for titillation?' But even if it was clearly part of the plot 'would it even be disturbing to an adult?'

And if you mentioned that there was any of the above you had to in one way or another 'prove' that it was part of the plot - although no-one was asked to provide proof that their 'curtain fic' was so innocent that it could be read to pre-schoolers as a bedtime story.

There were so many holes you could drive a bus through - spiders might disturb some adults, mention of the death of a child might disturb another, and so on, and then anything that contained someone 'acting more violently than expected for their race' would be top rated - you know, like those nasty ents at Isengard, or the horrible hobbits with pitchforks threatening men during the scourging of The Shire...!

So - for the new awards being developed the first requirement is that there will be no restrictions on eligibility based on rating... at all. There will be filters so people can easily avoid some of the things they don't like - whether overt sex/violence/whatever.

Watch out for a nomination or two when it comes together.

[ningloreth.livejournal.com]

Phew! (I followed your link). You (and the other volunteers) have really got your work cut out for you!

I think you're absolutely right in one of your replies above: you have to keep the rules simple and trust people to be honest, then have a mechanism for dealing with the ones who aren't -- rather like the law's supposted to work. Yes, that may be a lot of work, but surely no more work than laying down complex rules and applying them pre-emptively!

One thing the owners/mods should do, perhaps, is have the sort of disclaimer you see on dvds (saying that the commentaries are the personal opinions of the artists involved and not necessarily those of anyone at New Line or wherever), because then the owners/mods needn't fear readers' thinking that all the stories illustrate the owners/mods' personal tastes (and condemning them for it). Then they could be more relaxed about allowing in stuff they don't personally like, as long as it has appropriate warnings*. The thing is, if the majority of the readership really doesn't like Adult fic, they won't read it, it won't get votes and, eventually, it won't get nominated. That's what happened to the het categories at the My Precious Awards -- nobody would read the het fics. Sorted!

* I do think that the 'Author chose not to warn' option at AO3 is a good idea, because it tells the reader that the fic contains warning-worthy material without forcing the writer to put spoilers outside the cut.

I can see that you'll have huge problems with categories, too. Even with a story as simple as The Little Prince, I spent ages trying to work out what category to put him in. I appreciate that, by having lots of categories, they were trying to be fair but, as with archives, it doesn't work, because most readers cherry pick and avoid the categories they 'already know they don't like', so having lots of categories can actually amount to making the writer consign his or her fic to oblivion from the outset by putting it into a category that everybody 'already knows they don't like'. Maybe the categories should be less about era, races and/or pairings and more about general themes like 'romance', 'action/adventure', 'mystery', or 'missing scenes', etc. People would still hunt for their preferred era/race/pairing, but they might see the other summaries and, you never know, their curiosity might be piqued. I don't really know what the answer is, I can only tell you that, for a Harry Potter het award, I once had a story come second to a Harry/Draco story! (And nobody said a word).

Thanks for the plug (below), btw :-) :-)

[I've just posted some of my Draco/Hermione stories on a new (to me) archive, and one of the comments asks me where I've been hiding all this time! Actually I've been waving my hands over my head and bellowing, "Hey, look! Over here! I've written some fics!" And the fandom's been putting its hands over its ears and chanting, "La, la, li-la, la!"]

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

You (and the other volunteers) have really got your work cut out for you!

More others than me, I think/hope!

The aim seems at present to be 3 ratings - 'general', 'teen' and 'adult' - and all stories welcome. Also fewer categories, and simpler ones. This could well put more stories in each 'division' but should make things simpler.

Posting and commenting is open to all at the community - and what you have said here is all useful stuff. Would you like to add it yourself, or would you mind if I copied much of it over there?

[ningloreth.livejournal.com]

I don't mind at all if you copy anything you think's useful!

[bojojoti.livejournal.com]

Happy Tynwald Day!

Often, running communities is such a thankless job that any criticism or kerfuffle is deeply felt. It was probably time for those running the community to let it go and, hopefully, new blood will keep the community going.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Having a quiet was a good way to celebrate, for me, but I really must do something more next year.

As for the Awards thing - it was a massive undertaking and I really think that not only will an infusion of new blood be a good thing, but the core group should have asked for more help with things other than the periphery tasks earlier. Hopefully the new version will have learnt this from the events of the past few days!

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

This is related only in being about Tolkien, but at the big booksellers' expo last month I picked up a Hobbit movie (or movie tie-in, I forget) poster with you in mind, should you want it. If you do, just PM me your name and address, and I'll find a poster tube and send it across the pond.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

Ooh... yes please!

[azalaisdep.livejournal.com]

I'm on LJ so rarely at the moment that when I happened to pop in, I thought "Oh dear, I've obviously not been following this..." and when I double checked the MEFA community, was like you taken aback at how quickly the whole thing had come to a head. Clearly there must have been stresses going on behind the scenes that those involved weren't sharing publicly.

The new community's ideas about delegation, deputies, training on the assumption that no-one will hold a volunteer post for more than a year or two, and above all, building a site on a publicly available and known platform so that it can be easily passed from one site maintainer to another, seem very sensible. I must admit that while I've every sympathy for the outgoing volunteers, I am a bit baffled by their apparent assumption that they owned the MEFAs, and that they got to declare them dead rather than, quite justifiably, saying "We've had enough, we quit, someone else take it over." Volunteer projects are always going to experience turnover, and they ought to be managed in ways that enable that.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I think proprietary code and paying for hosting means that they did own the MEFAs. Which is fair, IMHO, although I know others wouldn't agree. Open source code and crowdsourced funding will give the new awards community ownership in all senses.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

I think proprietary code and paying for hosting means that they did own the MEFAs.

Although they had some of it passed on to them, as I understand it - they could have offered to do the same thing if anyone was willing to take it from them and take over the costs. But anyone doing that would have then had the right to rewrite the rules, of course.

But yes, it was their ball, they could take it home when they wanted.

[azalaisdep.livejournal.com]

I accept that means they owned the website. (Though personally I wasn't aware that the site was run on that basis, probably due to my own indolence in keeping up - though I wonder how many other participants were aware either...)

Totally agree that building a non-proprietary, crowdsourced new awards is the way to go forward.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

Hi! Lovely to see you!

It blew up so quickly - as I would have been on the ratings panel I have a copy of the new 'content advisory' rules which was e-mailed to me on June 23rd - pre-release I think.

My own first thought, to be honest, was that they were going to be almost unworkable as they contained phrases such as contains more violent content than is expected for the characters (i.e. non-soldiers, less violent races, etc.)

That would make a story ineligible - so... the ents at Isengard...? Hobbits scourging The Shire?

But that date shows how fast it all blew up and then imploded.

Hopefully something really good is going to emerge - and all the discussions being open to all should iron out a lot of the problems. I can see a point where actual wordings of policies etc will be done by task-force members 'behind the scenes' - but the whole thing feels so much more inclusive! (For example; if the members of the previous years' ratings panels had been asked about wording for the rules changes for this year - which I know they weren't - they might have been better worded, as they were the ones who would have had to decide where something fitted if there was any doubt.)

Hmm - totally new topic - as you've not been around much you may not have noticed The Right Kind of Shield, Part Two (http://curiouswombat.livejournal.com/318925.html?view=9336525#t9336525)... where I picked up on the wagers between the males. A bit different to part one - it probably wouldn't have made it into the MEFAs as they stood, put it that way! (I was actually thinking of e-mailing you the link because I know you liked part 1 - but it is really good to see you dropping by instead!)

[spiced-wine.livejournal.com]

am now fascinated by the way that a group of over 40 people are getting themselves into task forces, discussing policy, categories, ratings, finance and so on in an intelligent and organised fashion...

I am amazed and awed. I am so very glad that the new awards will be inclusive.

Happy Tynwald Day, in retrospect!

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

The development of something new is wonderful, isn't it?

And it is not only going to benefit those who were vocal about the need for change, either. See Ningloreth's comment above - most of those asking for change will probably not have read any of her stories; she writes Legolas/Éowyn mysteries and detective stories (http://www.eryn-carantaur.com/index.html) and her site is worth a visit because it is beautiful even if those ar not what you read - but Legolas and Éowyn have sex joyfully and with some abandon, regularly. Her stories should be welcome into any new awards - even with sex scenes and even though Legolas/Éowyn is not canon.

Such a broadening has got to benefit everyone, including those who write general, canon compliant, stories as well - as they will also get new readers.

[spiced-wine.livejournal.com]

Legolas and Éowyn have sex joyfully and with some abandon, regularly. Her stories should be welcome into any new awards - even with sex scenes and even though Legolas/Éowyn is not canon.

I totally agree. \0/ Joyful and regular non-canon sex FTW!

[x19narya90x.livejournal.com]

Belated happy Tynwald Day!

The reboot is really exciting, although there's tons to do :) I can see why a smaller team (as the MEFAs seemed to be) would get burned out by it.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

It really is exciting, watching things take shape right in front of us - and 'group ownership' should help stop people getting totally worn out by the whole thing.

Already there are certain things that seem to be reaching a consensus which will then be voted on; 3 ratings, all stories welcome no matter the level of sex or violence, but easy to use filters and a 'sign here to confirm age' screen before the links to 'adult' stuff are visible. Drabbles to compete against drabbles, novellas against novellas and so on. Then larger, less complex divisions for the stories - so you might be competing against 19 others rather than 6 or 7, but with easier understood classes.

Cool, eh?

[x19narya90x.livejournal.com]

Cool indeed! Definitely a happy bunny over here, and after all the fandom crap I've heard tell of over the years (the reason I've mostly lurked on the fringes of the fandom!) it's nice to see people being so respectful in their discussions :)

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

I wanted to comment last night but I was almost asleep and couldn't string whole sentences into a paragraph, lol. Thank you for sharing! I Loved the pictures and the sense of history, and I think your way of spending the day was perfect.

I'd assumed some common sense voice would finally be raised and the ratings definitions interpreted to fit how they were applied last year - both my 2011 first place winners had sex scenes and let's face it, Middle-earth was a pretty violent place and there were great stories reflecting that. All the misinformation going round didn't help things, and yeah, I think people were tired, not invested enough to fight for it. Marta also mentioned in her final post that she had a broken bone in her hand, and dealing with drama when you're in physical discomfort isn't easy. Anyhow, I'm really curious to see where the new project ends up - there are some good people involved. (getting hard to keep up with all those threads though *g*)

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

Tynwald is one of those things that just is, for me - and then it occurs to me that, actually, it is quite a wonderful thing!

I'd assumed some common sense voice would finally be raised and the ratings definitions interpreted to fit how they were applied last year

It should have been fairly straightforward to leave the new coding for grades 1-6 in place, but just simplify the definitions and take away the sense that anyone who wrote above FR15 must justify what they had written. But it became clear that the coding was a problem anyway, and that questions from 'the floor' were the last straw. I think everyone was surprised at how quickly the pegs were pulled and the tents rolled up - when simply not running this year but getting things sorted for next was also a reasonable option.

However it will be fascinating to see what is going to rise from the ashes...

[ningloreth.livejournal.com]

Is it driving you bonkers yet?

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

I mainly only read posts for my own team - which is Categorisation - and actually things are taking shape very well - a lot of discussion in each topic, this being boiled down to a series of polls which are open to all, and then move on or define more finely.

Although I seem to have, personally, created a situation where people are posting in their journals, and on the comm, that 'those new awards' are going to encourage all manners of depravity including racial hatred and incest!

This is because I commented, in a different Taskforce's discussion thread, that I really didn't see why there needed to be separate ratings for the awards, or these to be on the list of nominees - it is unusual in the Buffy fandom, although you'd know better than me about the HP fandom - and I thought people could simply decide whether they fancied the story wherever it was posted, by the rating and contents advisory notices there...

It didn't seem a big deal to me - just a simplification. One other person agreed with me, and so the main organiser in that taskforce put it up for discussion - this was done by two separate postings, one after the other, asking people to post to the thread they agreed with, to boil the arguments down so that a poll could be produce.

I really don't know where someone then got the idea that 'those new awards' were going to ban all ratings, insist on no contents advisory notes, and so this would make it impossible to stop fascists, paedophiles, and all sorts, nominating stories inciting things and then forcing people to read them...

However, the poll is now posted, Dwim and I seem to be the only two who thought no ratings on the nominations list was a good idea, and so we are being outvoted. I am fine with this, and I am sure she will be too. But as at least one of the people I saw 'warning people' about this abomination insists she will have nothing to do with such polls as she has already decided to refuse any nominations, it is likely that others will have seen one of the OMG! posts and believe every word of it.

I have also seen one of these 'no holds barred, no warnings, etc. etc. it's going to encourage illegality' posts saying it is all a conspiracy by 'the erotica lobby'. I said I didn't really think this was a particularly accurate description of my writing as a whole, to be told that it certainly wasn't me that was under attack... except that, of course - I was the person who suggested it in the first place....

Anyway, apart from me having accidentally created chaos, as far as I can tell so far;

they are to be called Tales of Middle Earth Awards,

there will be three separate ratings - general, teen, and adult,

voting will be similar to the old MEFAs, but categories are to be simpler and more intuitive - e.g 'Short story, humour, Lord of the Rings based', 'Drabble, angst, Silmarillion' or similar.

art will have classes too, but not in the first year, as there will need to be more thought into how you classify pictures.

It seems to me to be coming along very nicely in a short time, really!

But I do have to ration myself to reading the various threads for no more than 1 hour in 24!!

[ningloreth.livejournal.com]

'the erotica lobby'

LOL! Shall we form one?

It always amazes me when people want to control other people -- like on those programmes where people are marooned on a desert island and they spend all their time electing leaders, drawing up laws, deciding on sanctions... And forget to build a shelter or find any food.

I've been skimming the posts and I saw your comment about not needing ratings, but I hadn't seen the reaction. (I shall have to go searching). I swear to god there are professional offence-takers out there. And they do love their boycotts!

What I haven't seen is anyone pointing out that it wasn't the ratings in themselves that were the problem, it was the exclusion of stories on the basis of rating, and the imposition of ratings by someone other than the writer that gave the MEFAs a bad rep (in some circles).

I personally have no problem putting a rating on my stories. (I actually think that the higher the rating, the more readers you're likely to get). But I do think it's important that the writer is trusted to rate his or her own story (and to decide on his or her own warnings) and that the writer's viewpoint carries at least as much weight as the reader's.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

but I hadn't seen the reaction.

Most people in the original thread gave good reasons why they thought the awards needed to have ratings of their own. I've been trying to find the thread on the awards discussion site, but can't.

However Virtuella did post her thoughts on her own journal here (http://virtuella.livejournal.com/6926.html#comments) in an open post. And someone else is basically going 'Oh yes! I totally agree! But I refuse absolutely to get involved by voting in the polls about how it is going to all work! No! I am against it all - even if it ends up voting in favour of what I am in favour of on all points!'

As for author input - you might want to go and vote in this poll (http://mefa-ratings.livejournal.com/22485.html#cutid1). The polls are open to anyone who is interested.

[ningloreth.livejournal.com]

why should the burden be on readers to search for ratings?

LOL! You're getting these works for free! And, I bet you don't even comment!

The thing is, the only people who'll listen to someone like that are peolpe who already share the same views.