![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
curiouswombatI have always wanted to know, with any book or film that I have really enjoyed, what happens next? What happened to that character who appeared in chapter six for a few pages and then went off somewhere else? If there was a banquet what would they have eaten? And so on. In effect I have always made up my own stories to cover these questions - I have always composed fan-fic. But I haven't always written it down and, sometimes, it has seemed to me that actually doing so is too much like hard work.
I commented when I posted the chapter of Brotherhood last week, that I realised why the ‘Return of the Key-verse’ stories are such a delight to write as I worked out the scene between Orophin (an elf) and a middle-aged lady of the court.
I realised that I like to write almost as if the point of view characters are social anthropologists… and with these stories I am always able to write from an outsider’s point of view. I can consider how they look to those who don’t really know exactly what is going on and both the character and I can ask questions that an insider wouldn’t need to ask. To me the everyday is fascinating, and occasionally very funny, when seen by an outsider.
So – Dawn trying to work out what is happening around her in Tolkien’s world is much more interesting than looking at it from, say, Frodo’s point of view, or to look at Sunnydale from Dawn’s point of view. Dawn’s discovery of the different races, the recognition that hobbits are driven more by mealtimes than elves, that the softly spoken, soft skinned, beardless elves keep getting chatted up by men even though they are fearless warriors, that Gimli fancies Lady Galadriel, and so on, is such fun to write.
I loved the idea of watching Aragorn’s coronation from an upstairs window, not really knowing who is who, and I love the way that there are unknowns within Tolkien’s world – we know there would be a feast, but we can decide for ourselves what might have been eaten, and so on.
But to look at any society from the outside is so much fun! How does Dawn cope with elves who happily all bathe together in rivers? How does she understand the Rohirrim when she gets to see them close up? Where would elves go on ‘dates’ when there are no movies, bars or clubs? What did the elves think of Sunnydale when they came to rescue Dawn from her rescuers?
In all but the last two chapters of the original story we only see even the Scoobies from Giles POV – he is something of an outsider and, by definition, a watcher. It was fun to then look at the elves and realise that he saw them as cold-blooded killers. Even more fun was to look at what was happening from the point of view of the ultimate, fascinated, outsider – Andrew. Andrew who wanted to record everything – but it was always filtered by his own interpretation of events.
In Brotherhood I have the whole puzzle of what the elves think of the humans in Middle Earth. That has been great fun to work out. For example what did Rumil think at his first formal Gondorian court function? (Answer - “They smell!” Then I could have Legolas explain, having had more to do with ‘men’, that it is more the heavy fabrics that smell as they are difficult to wash. This, of course, leads to the obvious question “But we, who do not sweat so much, wear fabrics that are less stifling and easier cleansed… why do the men not do that?”)
There is, still, the way others view the elves – and so, when Dawn/Tindómë is kidnapped, I realised that a really interesting view of events would be that of Éowyn – not an elf, or a Gondorian – but an outsider to both.
And then that scene with Orophin. How would an elf see a middle-aged lady who has invited him to her bed? He has no preconceptions of the effect of aging on bodies – it is neither a turn-on, or off. The whole thing is a pretty new experience – this is a woman not a female elf, but on the other hand he is well over 1,000 years old and has been ‘joining’ with females for most of that time. How would he think about this experience?
As soon as I began to consider it I found it real fun. I realised that he wouldn’t think ‘Oh her breasts are sagging’ but rather that he could see little benefit to the extra flesh but it was not displeasing.
(He found quickly that there are certain advantages to breasts that can be squeezed together…)
He doesn’t think ‘what a big bum,’ but rather Her buttocks were soft and white – like bread before it goes into the oven – he wanted to take them in his hands and knead them. Can you imagine what she would have thought if he had told her that?
It occurs to the woman that, as she is about 5’2” and he is 6’5” there may be some degree of disproportion – she comments that ”I fear it will hurt.”
Where a man might well be complimented by the suggestion that he was ‘well hung’, and probably tell her ‘the bigger the better’, Orophin is slightly perplexed – he is no bigger in that part of his body than the average elf – if it was smaller it would look weird on someone his height… And so on!
There are so many opportunities to look at things from outside still - how do Mirkwood elves look to Lothlórien elves, or vice versa? How does it feel to realise that, whilst you have not changed much at all in 20 years, someone else has lived a quarter or more of their life in that time, and changed a lot?
How will they fare if/when they sail West and find themselves in Valinor – which should, logically, be dominated by the Noldor culture – as different from the elven culture Dawn/Tindómë knows as that of the Indian subcontinent would be to the original, Californian girl, Dawn.
If they meet the re-bodied Haldir there, what is he going to make of the changes in his brothers, or of the ‘not-quite-an-elleth’ that Rumil has married?
The possibilities are still fairly endless. I have a feeling that, even if no-one were to read them (and very few people here seem to – but they are still read by a few hundred over at Twisting the Hellmouth), I would tell these stories to myself anyway.
When I talked about this to S2C he said he thought that many people enjoy writing cross-over stories to look at the familiar through new eyes. Works for me, anyway!
I commented when I posted the chapter of Brotherhood last week, that I realised why the ‘Return of the Key-verse’ stories are such a delight to write as I worked out the scene between Orophin (an elf) and a middle-aged lady of the court.
I realised that I like to write almost as if the point of view characters are social anthropologists… and with these stories I am always able to write from an outsider’s point of view. I can consider how they look to those who don’t really know exactly what is going on and both the character and I can ask questions that an insider wouldn’t need to ask. To me the everyday is fascinating, and occasionally very funny, when seen by an outsider.
So – Dawn trying to work out what is happening around her in Tolkien’s world is much more interesting than looking at it from, say, Frodo’s point of view, or to look at Sunnydale from Dawn’s point of view. Dawn’s discovery of the different races, the recognition that hobbits are driven more by mealtimes than elves, that the softly spoken, soft skinned, beardless elves keep getting chatted up by men even though they are fearless warriors, that Gimli fancies Lady Galadriel, and so on, is such fun to write.
I loved the idea of watching Aragorn’s coronation from an upstairs window, not really knowing who is who, and I love the way that there are unknowns within Tolkien’s world – we know there would be a feast, but we can decide for ourselves what might have been eaten, and so on.
But to look at any society from the outside is so much fun! How does Dawn cope with elves who happily all bathe together in rivers? How does she understand the Rohirrim when she gets to see them close up? Where would elves go on ‘dates’ when there are no movies, bars or clubs? What did the elves think of Sunnydale when they came to rescue Dawn from her rescuers?
In all but the last two chapters of the original story we only see even the Scoobies from Giles POV – he is something of an outsider and, by definition, a watcher. It was fun to then look at the elves and realise that he saw them as cold-blooded killers. Even more fun was to look at what was happening from the point of view of the ultimate, fascinated, outsider – Andrew. Andrew who wanted to record everything – but it was always filtered by his own interpretation of events.
In Brotherhood I have the whole puzzle of what the elves think of the humans in Middle Earth. That has been great fun to work out. For example what did Rumil think at his first formal Gondorian court function? (Answer - “They smell!” Then I could have Legolas explain, having had more to do with ‘men’, that it is more the heavy fabrics that smell as they are difficult to wash. This, of course, leads to the obvious question “But we, who do not sweat so much, wear fabrics that are less stifling and easier cleansed… why do the men not do that?”)
There is, still, the way others view the elves – and so, when Dawn/Tindómë is kidnapped, I realised that a really interesting view of events would be that of Éowyn – not an elf, or a Gondorian – but an outsider to both.
And then that scene with Orophin. How would an elf see a middle-aged lady who has invited him to her bed? He has no preconceptions of the effect of aging on bodies – it is neither a turn-on, or off. The whole thing is a pretty new experience – this is a woman not a female elf, but on the other hand he is well over 1,000 years old and has been ‘joining’ with females for most of that time. How would he think about this experience?
As soon as I began to consider it I found it real fun. I realised that he wouldn’t think ‘Oh her breasts are sagging’ but rather that he could see little benefit to the extra flesh but it was not displeasing.
(He found quickly that there are certain advantages to breasts that can be squeezed together…)
He doesn’t think ‘what a big bum,’ but rather Her buttocks were soft and white – like bread before it goes into the oven – he wanted to take them in his hands and knead them. Can you imagine what she would have thought if he had told her that?
It occurs to the woman that, as she is about 5’2” and he is 6’5” there may be some degree of disproportion – she comments that ”I fear it will hurt.”
Where a man might well be complimented by the suggestion that he was ‘well hung’, and probably tell her ‘the bigger the better’, Orophin is slightly perplexed – he is no bigger in that part of his body than the average elf – if it was smaller it would look weird on someone his height… And so on!
There are so many opportunities to look at things from outside still - how do Mirkwood elves look to Lothlórien elves, or vice versa? How does it feel to realise that, whilst you have not changed much at all in 20 years, someone else has lived a quarter or more of their life in that time, and changed a lot?
How will they fare if/when they sail West and find themselves in Valinor – which should, logically, be dominated by the Noldor culture – as different from the elven culture Dawn/Tindómë knows as that of the Indian subcontinent would be to the original, Californian girl, Dawn.
If they meet the re-bodied Haldir there, what is he going to make of the changes in his brothers, or of the ‘not-quite-an-elleth’ that Rumil has married?
The possibilities are still fairly endless. I have a feeling that, even if no-one were to read them (and very few people here seem to – but they are still read by a few hundred over at Twisting the Hellmouth), I would tell these stories to myself anyway.
When I talked about this to S2C he said he thought that many people enjoy writing cross-over stories to look at the familiar through new eyes. Works for me, anyway!
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 03/02/2010 10:36 pm (UTC)[Nods] Same reason lots of us like writing from the POV of OCs or very minor characters, I think...
no subject
Date: 03/02/2010 10:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 03/02/2010 11:32 pm (UTC)Have been sick like dog for the last ten days or so so have not read the new bits all through yet - just skimmed for the general jist - so no comments from me but damnit I AM reading and will as long as I have eyes in my head.
I have always rather liked crossover although commercial ones do very rarely allow for much in the way of subtlety (I'm thinking here of the kind of comic book crossovers I used to read, you know the SpiderMan and Wolverine kind of thing, although that one was actually pretty interesting). LoTR fanfic though has never really been one that I have enjoyed, largely because, linguistically, very, very few people can rise to actually catching the tones of the books without slavishly mimicking JRRT's language either and with yours as a towering exception crossovers with BtVS tend to be crashingly awful. AWFUL!
What you have achieved here is pretty rare. It is a true balancing act. On the one hand it is traditional 'fiction of the gaps' where you don't mess with 'canon' and generally don't tangle with the main stars of the plot (well not until the main plot is safely over) but fill in some of the wide empty spaces left in JRRT's narrative. However the uniqueness that is Dawn gives us an especially wonderful viewpoint. She is 'not quite an elf' but is not quite a human woman either. She is the Key and so she opens the door for us and can be our eyes in a way that Buffy or Spike or even Xander (with or without super-powers) cannot. They are immersed in their world and their idiom but Dawn has always stood slightly apart from the Sunnydale world, never quite finding her niche, and brings several tonnes less baggage with her.
I will stop waffling now as cannot really seem to say what I am trying to say.
no subject
Date: 03/02/2010 11:54 pm (UTC)I would dance you around and around for your kind, not waffling, words! But it might make you feel sick again...
I do hope that you feel better quickly - it has not been a good winter for you health-wise.
no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 11:13 am (UTC)Glad the waffle helped but really there is much more going on with these stories than a simple choice of character. All that would be worth very little if you did not have the gift of striking that sound linguistic note that makes it feel like JRRT without actually trying to be JRRT. Be proud of that! It is a hell of an achievement!
(I wonder if part of the success there is that you have in a way feminized the tone, and shifted the focus to a more intimate canvas - one of my old Profs would have said that you moved the frame from Epic to Romance (big R not little r). in fact now i think about it you have done exactly what JRRT did himself. For The Hobbit and LOTR he almost makes a signature of juxtaposing the High Epic frame with the very down to earth, actually essentially C20th figures of the Hobbits and by the end of the books one has grown into the other so that first Bilbo and then the 4 hobbits and also Strider have shifted their sphere so they are now rather larger than the space they had inhabited before the story began. Dawn/Tindome provides a similar device and she too, very clearly seen in the first of these crossovers, grows into her larger world and brings us along with her. I have never quite felt the same about Sunnydale since you showed it to me through Tindome's returning eyes.)
no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 11:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 01:10 pm (UTC)Glad you are feeling better - all the moving house stress has doubtless left you open to illness. Well that's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
first Bilbo and then the 4 hobbits and also Strider have shifted their sphere so they are now rather larger than the space they had inhabited before the story began.
That's it exactly.
I have never quite felt the same about Sunnydale since you showed it to me through Tindome's returning eyes.
The bed's too small, the walls are too flat, the air is too stuffy! Jeans are too rough on the skin, there is too much light pollution, and the atmosphere reminds the twins of Mordor...
Mmm - perhaps not the most flattering of views!
I shall, like Mary, hold all your words to my heart. I shall cuddle them and come back and look at them when I need inspiration!
no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 01:02 am (UTC)That was my favourite bit of this entire story so far! (Even more than Eowyn's heroics). And I totally agree that that is how an elf would think.
[One of the reasons I put Legolas with a human woman was that I'd read far too much LOTR fic in which Legolas said something like: "You're not beautiful enough for an elf," and it seemed to me that, to an elf, elven beauty would actually be normal & boring, but even quite ordinary human looks would be strange and exotic... My humans don't smell, though ;-) ]
even if no-one were to read them (and very few people here seem to
You get loads of readers! I only get you :-)
no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 08:40 am (UTC)That scene with Orophin was, as I said, such fun to write - and I wondered why it was so much more fun that any of the ones I had written in the Buffyverse stories - even though they had been fun in their own way. That was when it occurred to me that I use an outsider POV, at least in part, in most sections of this series, sometimes showing the same thing through several pairs of eyes, and that is why it is such fun.
My humans only smell when they are wearing their heavy, best, clothes that they never wash and oft-times hang in the privy closet to keep the moths away... :~)
no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 11:17 am (UTC)Will swing by your site. :)
no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 11:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 12:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 12:54 pm (UTC)Ningloreth writes wonderfully researched Who-done-its with a romantic element. She also has a perfectly good reason for Éowyn ending up with Legolas that is canon compliant up to the end of Return of the King, if not the appendices... and certainly fits with the film visuals!
no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 02:38 am (UTC)And being happy with what you write is the second awesomeness that you posted. Because everyone should write for themselves. I finally learned that lesson far too late, I feel, and lost a lot of happiness because of it. But hey, I did learn it, so I didn't lose out on all the happiness! ^_^ Sure, comments are fun, but it's more gratifying to finish the thought for yourself. I find that I like rereading what I've written more that way.
To sum: you are awesomeness personified. I love your thoughts here. ^_^
~Nebula
no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 08:47 am (UTC)I like rereading what I've written
Yes - I realise I am very happy to spend time re-reading chapters of this - I've also come to feel that these, side-characters in the original TV series and books, have their own, distinct, personalties and are 'mine'!
no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 05:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 08:50 am (UTC)Thank you so much!
Actually you have coined the perfect description - it would have saved me a lot of words in the post if I'd thought of it :~)
no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 01:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 04/02/2010 05:19 pm (UTC)I was really thinking that I'd probably keep writing them down even if it was only me because it is fun - but that actually there are about 500 people who read over at TtH even though only five or six of them comment.
On the other hand it is lovely to read all these nice comments!!
I've always had a soft spot for Rumil and Orophin
Here's my Rumil for you.
no subject
Date: 05/02/2010 05:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 05/02/2010 08:32 am (UTC)It does - and it gives me something to think about on the drive between clinics and patients on boring days!