curiouswombat | (no subject)

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I do not often discuss politics on my journal - I'm not a very political person. However I have found myself writing long comments on a couple of my friends journals on the subject of the current events in Lebanon, and the fact that Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank has it written into its constitution that it wishes to demolish the State of Israel and return the land to the Palestinians.

I felt that it would only be right to say these things under my own name, so to speak. I fear that my position may upset my friends who are Jewish, and this is not at all my aim, but I do believe that the current Israeli government are wrong.

Following a link to the constitution of Hamas in

beckyzoole's journal I commented -

That Hamas state clearly that they believe the land known until recently as Palestine is theirs is no surprise.

The problem is that their beliefs and those of the founders of the modern state of Israel are identical - both believe that God gave that land to them. But the Muslim Palestinians believe that He punished the Jews by taking it from them and giving it to the Palestinians.

They see it as their land - because of course, until 1946 it primarily was, although not all the Palestinians are Muslim, a large minority are Christian.

And so the organisations who believe in driving out the people who were just shipped in and given the houses and land of the long-standing population will of course have followers, just as the Zionists who believed that they should be given the land had followers - those who inhabit the land today.

People will vote for Hamas because the less militant politicians have been unable to get for them any of the things they were promised when the 1946 land-grab happened. The British, Americans etc. generously gave land, which was not theirs to give, to the Jewish people, but the owners have not, as far as I can tell from a lot of reading around the subject over the years, received a penny piece of the promised compensation.

Had the international community done anything to improve the lot of the people they simply threw out of Palestine, those people might be less likely to follow Hamas, who see the return of the land as their divine right. Just as I know that my mother received payment when she left the house in which I was brought up and so I no longer see it as my birthright. Had she simply been forced out of it at gunpoint, forced into something akin to a hovel, and told 'tough!' I might feel that I still had a good claim on the property.

Had the Israeli government been persuaded by the international community to get out of the land they occupied, and back to their agreed borders, and to pay what had been promised, it is possible that many of the displaced persons would have become settled in the Gaza strip and the West Bank and no longer be all that bothered by the calls of those who want to reclaim the land. This would have relied on the countries who actually do own those areas finding that acceptable, but it is quite possible that they would.

As long as the USA has the knee jerk reaction of always vetoing any attempts by the international community to try to make Israel obey international laws and improve the lot of the displaced Palestinians, organisations like Hamas will have followers.

I have never understood why, as the decision to give the Jewish people a homeland was that mainly of the USA and the UK they didn't give them one of the central states of the US, or a county like Lincolnshire in England. Yes there were already people living there, but there were people living in Palestine!

I have also wondered why, as so many Romanies were also tortured and murdered by the Nazi regime, no-one gave them their own country. Perhaps we should just be grateful that no-one did, or it would be another source of strife, but it is a fair question! (End of self-quote)

And where someone said in

bedawyn's journal What bothers me about the Palestinians is that I can't figure out exactly what they want other than for every Israeli citizen to pack up and leave. I again found myself drawn to reply passionately on behalf of the Palestinians - I apologise that some of this overlaps with what I wrote above, but it is again simply a cut and paste from

bedawyn's journal -

(Quote)
And some of the things the Palestinians want are
(1)the compensation that they were promised by the USA, the newly formed Israeli government and the UK when they were forced out of their homes sixty years ago, of which they have seen nothing.

(2) the land that they were pushed into when Israel was formed, in neighbouring countries who had no say about taking the Palestinian refugees, and which they were then forced out of again when Israel refused to return to the nationally agreed borders.

(3) the land they have been farming before the Israelis built a wall between their houses and their farms.

(4) compensation for the houses that have been demolished time and time again by Israeli bulldozers.

(5) reparation for the lives of the people who were often inside those houses at the time.

(6) reparation for the sort of things like the taxi driver interviewed a couple of days ago who pointed out three quarters of a house, where a couple of days before he had had a whole house, and the heap of twisted metal which had been his (American built) taxi, which had been flattened by an Israeli tank - so that he now has no way of making a living to enable him to mend his house.

(7) The Israelis to stay out of the land that they say they have 'given' to the Palestinians. Even if it is like I take your bag of sweets off you, now I generously give you a sweet out of the bag - now I snatch it back from you and jump up and down on it.

Many of them would of course like their original land back - after all if someone took your house off you at gun-point, then you were never given a penny piece for it, even years after you might still feel that it was yours. But they mostly accept that through no fault of their own they have had to pay the price for the fact that the Jewish people suffered in Europe - they just want to not have to keep on and on paying the bill for something that was nothing to do with them in the first place.

They want to be able to live on the scraps of land they have been forced into without finding someone has built a wall in their garden, or bulldozed their grandmother. Most of them would just like to have the sort of things that you and I take for granted.
(End quote)

And the current situation in Lebanon is tragic. Lebanon was just beginning to get itself back together as a country after years of civil war. There were still Hezbollah 'freedom fighters' (or terrorists, or 'the Resistance' depending on how you look at things) in the borderlands where Lebanon, Syria and Israel meet, but they were mainly in the area that had previously been occupied by Israel for many years, and as far as one can tell from interviews on TV most of the population were just glad that there was no more fighting.

Totally unacceptably, to me, Hezzbollah seem to have gone into territory internationally accepted as Israel to attack and the kidnap two Israeli soldiers. Now they probably should have known it would provoke Israel into totally disproportionate retaliation, having seen the destruction in Gaza recently, and to me the initial blame for the situation is definitely at the door of Hezbollah.

But the way in which the entire state of Lebanon has been attacked is unforgivable. I heard a rabbi on the radio last week explaining that 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth' is not actually an exhortation to wreak revenge, but is meant to limit the extent of revenge - in effect you should only take an eye for an eye - not two eyes, two arms and a leg.

So yes, Hezzbollah are firing rockets into Israel - but the revenge wreaked by the Israelis is totally out of all proportion. That this is so must be obvious to anyone - after all the governments of Italy, France, the USA and (slowly!) the UK etc. are only evacuating their nationals from the Lebanon - they aren't evacuating them from Israel.

The impression I am getting is that an organised and prosperous Lebanon is not acceptable to the Israeli government - they see it as a threat, and took any opportunity that they could to bomb it back into the state it was in during their previous occupation and Lebanense civil war. Now this may not be true - but this is the impression they give.

President G Bush has the same knee jerk reaction as every US president before him 'Israel is always right' - and so it seems as if no matter what the Israeli government do to any of their neighbours they get no flack for it, because the US government will always veto anything that in any way criticises Israel.

Most people I have met from Europe in general believe that this is to do with the number of Jewish people living in the USA, but I cannot believe that all, or even most, of those people believe that Israel can treat anyone however they like, without any consequences. Therefore I really do wonder why the US government behave in this way. Whatever the reason, simply blaming Syria is not a logical reaction, and the US government must have some of the blood of the Gaza Palestinians and the Lebanese civilians that the Israeli armed forces have bulldozed, shot, shelled etc. on their hands.

So that is how I feel - month after month I read in newspapers, magazines etc. of the suffering of the Palestinian people - the women, children, elderly people - who had no say in their current situation at all. I despair at the way they have to live, never knowing from one day to the next whether they will have a house to come home to, or whether they will find it bulldozed because someone decided it was 'too close to our land' or simply in the way when we decide to drive down your street in a tank because a teenager threw stones at one of us. I hear psychologists tell us over and over again that abused children become abusers - which may well account for the way the Israeli government work, but bodes very badly for the way that the Palestinian children will behave when they grow up, as they learn that shooting people, bulldozing their houses, confiscating their land etc. is the right way to behave, because no-one even admonishes the people who do these things to them.

Now I wait for you all to shout at me, and defriend me.

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I doubt you'll see many people yelling at you or defriending you for expressing well thought out opinions. I also think that there are many here in the US who are clueless as to why Israel and Palestine are fighting, and while some might have a knee-jerk reaction of supporting Israel no matter what, many more likely don't. I agree with you to a certain extent; the Palestinians have been the whipping boys/girls of the Israelis for years now, and they deserve to have the international community lend them a voice.

I have never understood why Americans automatically support the Israeli government no matter what - especially as the Americans are so much more committed Christians than many countries - but they never seem to stick up for the Lebanese and Palestinians who are Christian. Not that I personally think there should be any difference in the way we treat people no matter what their religion - but it does seem to be important to many American Christians - so do they think Palestinians and Lebanese people are less precious to God?

Western ideology --- which some might say is synonomous with capitalism --- is what we have in common with Israel. We back Israel which, for all it's religious fervor still thinks and acts like a Western nation (as it was formed by Europeans, I guess that's not surprising) seems to be a lot more like us, and they help keep those headdress-wearing "ferners" we find so upsetting at bay. Sad to think that, even after evolution, we still think in terms of "what's like us is good, what's not must die."

Sadly you may well have hit the nail on the head. Has anyone ever pointed out to the US population that the population of the Lebanon is to a large extent 'European' rather than 'Arab'? Or is this information too politically sensitive do you think? Do you think that US TV stations try hard to find only dark haired, dark skinned Lebanese to stand in the background when filming? :-)

We have this mindset of Arabs and the Middle East. We don't really understand "European" versus "Arab" Lebanese population make-up because we don't really understand descent. This lack of understanding comes, I think, from a collective national desire (taught all the way back to the Revolution) to erase all traces of the past (bragging about being Cherokee-Irish-Italian-Swahili-Aztec-Welsh-Eskimo-Border Collie when asked to describe racial makeup doesn't count as honoring or even considering the past and its influence, as far as I'm concerned). We seem to think in terms of land mass more than history, and we think of everyone who comes from the Middle Eastern region who isn't Israeli as "Arab." I always figure that the reasons the US commercial TV news clips all look vaguely familiar is because they are ---- they have to use what they can get over and over or they'd run the risk of letting us see people who looker whiter than we think Arabs do. (After all, I've met people even in the last few years who think it's sacreligious to say that, genetically and historically, Jesus probably was Black, or at least way darker than the blond-haired, blue-eyed guy we know from Western art).

The level of not just pro-Israeli feeling, but jingoistic screaming and shouting pro-Israeli sentiment in the US has really come home to me when I stuck my head above the parapet on

beckyzoole's journal. I have been given long and detailed lessons on why none of the problems in the middle east are anything to do with Israel in no uncertain manner!

I have always assumed, since I was a small child, that as Jesus was born into a Jewish family in Palestine he probably looked like the people who lived there - dark haired, dark olive complexion, probably a bigger nose than if he had been Northern European - like an Arab basically, as even the Bible points out that the Arabs and the Jews are basically one people!

I presume that many Americans would consider that assumption as sacriligious!

I presume that many Americans would consider that assumption as sacriligious!

Oh, it's worse than that -- there are quite a few who seriously believe that Jesus spoke English. There was even a congressman from my home state of Florida who actually said that on record several years ago (although I've forgotten his name and can't find it at the moment).

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curiouswombat.livejournal.com - 2006-07-19 07:40 (UTC) - Expand

Ah, yes. The "isn't not our fault, we're the oppressed" tack. The Semite in my household often tells me, when I point out the wrongness of the unfamilial, solitary, lone-wolfness (and disgusting boy-messiness) that is at his core, that I am an anti-Semite. He's wrong, of course. But, as a result, I still feel slightly constrained when mentioning the fact that Israeli "reaction" is usually aggression, not to mention overkill. But even the boy comes through sometimes. He said he'd tell you his infinitely-darker thoughts than mine (which usually means something to do withhis thoughts on money and who controls it) when next he gets on line. I just told him to make sure to say he's an Israeli citizen by birth and can say (at least if you pretend Israel --- or anyplace, for that matter --- is a democracy) whatever he wants to fend off the sure-to-follow attacks that say he's everything from a self-hating, self-debasing Jew to a Nazi. Even though his mother still has the Auschwitz tatoo and his father carried his to the grave --- a victim status that too much defines the Jewish-American conscience for those who weren't direct victims of Nazi persecution, as far as I'm concerned. I've stopped trying to tell anyone I know who had Jewish family in the camps that homosexuals were also victims of Nazi oppression who were forced to wear pink triangles and who were also put into the camps, as were Romanys, "mental defectives", and countless others --- none of whom ever really seem to count when I talk to Jewish camp survivors and their born-free progeny. But then, it's not my parents who were victims of Nazi persecution. Still, I gotta ask myself why it's okay for them to envelop themselves in the cloak of victim-persona (e.g. "Everyone picks on us. We have to defend ourselves.") when feelings of victimization is something we in the U.S. don't tolerate in abused children, abused wives, victims of racially-motivated near-lynchings and everyone else who's actually been a victim of direct abuse. They hear "Get Over It." If I were to say that I felt I was a victim because my father got denied jobs and was refused food in restaurants because he was a Mexican --- and in the company of black men, to boot --- I'd be told to stop being childish. And I'd agree. Even though it happened. To my father. Not me (except one time).

There's a disconnect here, I think. Maybe the S.O.'s right. Maybe it's all about money. It makes the world go around, after all.

And what you have always assumed about Jesus' physical characteristics has always been extremely well-informed, intellingent, and logical. You sacroligiosia, you. ;-) (and in case you can't see it on your end -- wink, wink). But you take a distant second to the S.O. who, in the presence of one of my more Catholic friends and me, told us both that any houses Jesus framed and any cabinets he hung must have collapsed because...Jews don't do construction or home improvement work. Or car maintenance. Which, all Deities love him, the S.O. proves daily.

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curiouswombat.livejournal.com - 2006-07-19 07:51 (UTC) - Expand

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evilawyer.livejournal.com - 2006-07-21 00:39 (UTC) - Expand

What

evilawyer said, but as among Christians, I think it has something to do with the fact that a lot of evangelical Christians (which make up a lot of American Christians) still believe that the Jews are God's Chosen People, and that the nation of Israel has to be intact before Christ will come again. I'm simplifying a lot of theology there, but that's the gist of it. I had a number of professors at seminary who were just as baffled (and angry) as you are, pointing out--like you--that there's a significant minority of Palestinian Christians. It shouldn't make a difference in how we treat people, but their point is that it's our duty as part of the Church to support our Christian brothers and sisters whenever we can. And our duty as Christians to speak out against injustice wherever we see it.

There seems to be a sort of bipolar thing here - the Jews are God's Chosen People - the nation of Israel has to be intact before Christ will come again - but then He will cast His Chosen People into the depths of Hell....

it's our duty as part of the Church to support our Christian brothers and sisters whenever we can. And our duty as Christians to speak out against injustice wherever we see it.

Our small denomination also see it as part of our role as God's people to support those we see being oppressed and suffering, and supporting fellow Christians - which is why there are regular visits by URC representatives to Palestinian towns and villages, and articles in the denominational magazine, 'Reform', showing the reality of life for them.

I find it odd that so many American Christians do not see the Palestinian people as being worthy of such care. I am only just beginning to see that rather than the American population being less pro-Israeli/anti-Palestinian than we might think from our odd glimpses of your news media, if the replies to my comments on

beckyzoole's are in any way representative I have underestimated the bias.

There seems to be a sort of bipolar thing here - the Jews are God's Chosen People - the nation of Israel has to be intact before Christ will come again - but then He will cast His Chosen People into the depths of Hell....

It's a huge oversimplification, but it's not as bi-polar as you'd think. To a dispensationalist, God's covenant with israel is still in effect. The jews will always be God's chosen people. The new testament covenants are a separate thing. You could probably find individuals who would argue that the jews are going to be thrown into hell, but that's not a typical view.

This is probably way more than you're actually interested it, I just find theology fascinating!

The theology IS fascinating - as Christians we were taught that Jesus brought a New Covenant, which superceded the old covenant. I have a feeling that I was told that Jesus foretold the fall of the temple and the casting out of the Jews as well. I kind of had the impression that as God-made-Man he spoke with some authority...

I am reminded of a sermon I heard on women's role in the Church given by N.T. Wright, a New Testament scholar and bishop in the Anglican church. He said, "For you Americans, it's always a black and white thing. You always break things down into their polarities." He was referring to traditionalist views of women, but I think the same can be applied to this sort of thing as well. Most Americans think, "Israel equals good, and Palestinian equals suicide bombers and badness." The reality of it all is so much more complex than that.

I was talking to a co-worker today about this very thing, and she said, "Well, I'm pro-Israel," as though that was the end of the argument. Because of the black and white viewpoint, however, it's very easy to let things slide rather than saying, "I support their cause, but I don't approve of their methods," or something similar. I think most Americans don't have the first idea about the real situation in the Middle East, and they don't care to know, quite frankly.

"Well, I'm pro-Israel,"

A bit like which team you follow for the World Cup, really!

I think most Americans don't have the first idea about the real situation in the Middle East, and they don't care to know, quite frankly.

I really didn't believe that this was so totally true, until I saw a few posts on the subject, and people genuinely being baffled by it - although these are the people who should be applauded, because they have been interested enough by discussions and comments to realise that there may be more to it than they had been led to believe, and are finding out. But others do seem to be 'I know enough to know that I am right, please don't tell me anything more'.

How are the American media covering the fact that America is having to evacuate it's nationals because the Israelis are bombing them? Or is it going to be the first time they have evacuated their people without media coverage?

So true. Of course, a sizable number of Americans have been bemoaning the ignorance of the population as far as history and world politics goes for years now. We just don't learn much of this stuff in school, unfortunately, and many aren't interested enough to seek it out on their own. I happen to like to know things, so...

Actually, about the only media coverage I've seen of the evacuation is devoted to the fact that every other country has been moving faster. There's apparently a lot of anger surrounding the fact that the government has been dragging their feet in a big way. But there's been nothing said about the fact that they're having to evacuate because Israel's doing the bombing. Although, there was a small mention made of the fact that Israel ceased its bombing for long enough that some American helicopters were able to fly out. I think I heard that right while I was fixing dinner.

It shouldn't make a difference in how we treat people, but their point is that it's our duty as part of the Church to support our Christian brothers and sisters whenever we can. And our duty as Christians to speak out against injustice wherever we see it.

Very well said...

I also think that there are many here in the US who are clueless as to why Israel and Palestine are fighting

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Pass it on, it has nice pictures and everything, Even that capital punisment supproting gun toting lunatic texan would be able to follow it. lol

What surprises me is the possibility that Americans don't know these things. Do you really not get these sort of figures in your news broadcasts?

Nope, we don't. The house demolitions... I'd never even heard of them until I joined SUSTAIN briefly a few years back.

But my real reason for posting this response is to say I LOVE that icon!

The icon is by

junkland_red, and is snaggable with credit.

I guess they didn't cover the death of the young American girl, Rachel Corrie, who was killed by an Israeli army bulldozer being driven over her? We had more coverage of the young British men killed in similar circumstances, one of whose parents took the Israeli army to court, in Israel, and giving full credit where it is due, won their case - the court agreed that he had been shot in cold blood whilst he had his back to the tank, trying to hustle children out of an area that the Israeli soldiers were firing into.

No, I would like to say Rachel Corrie wasn't covered at all, at least not in any mainstream media that I've seen. I knew about it from keeping an ear out to activist stuff. But to be fair, I don't remember how long ago that was... it might have been during one of the periods when I was ignoring the mainstream media anyway.

*indignant spluttering* NOT AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!

*Calms breathing* I'm not american. Oh no. I'm a proud welshy from the land of sheep, rain and close harmony singing.

;-)

Calm down dear, calm down! I meant the name of the website. ;~D

And whenI replied about three comments up this thread I realise that I got confused and said 'yours' when I should have said 'theirs'!

Grovels in your general direction!

LOL! Grovel ye not my dear grovel ye not.

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