curiouswombat: (notes from a small island)
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posted by [personal profile] curiouswombat at 09:14pm on 05/09/2013 under ,
D-d is enjoying herself in Guernsey. A slight mix-up with the taxi sent to collect her at the airport found her at the wrong hotel briefly, but it was easily sorted, and she is now settling in. The office staff are all very welcoming, and she is already making new friends.

Dishwashers? Well our 10 year old Zanussi was getting past it - various bits had broken, or dropped off, and we decided it was time to replace it. I went to a local showroom carrying something very important for this task - one of our dinner plates! When we got new crockery for our 25th wedding anniversary we made sure the dinner plates were no bigger in diameter than the old ones - mainly so they would fit into the cupboard. But the angle of rim to base was different - and they couldn't stand properly in the old dishwasher without the rotating arm hitting them. We've had to basically lie them down, and it meant no more than three dinner plates in any wash.

Anyway, the lady in the showroom was surprised by me bringing out a plate - until we tried it in the first dishwasher and... ping, the same thing happened! But the plates fit into the rather cheap and basic Baumatic perfectly. So it is now in situ and working well.

But this led to a discussion at work about dishwashers - and I was surprised to find others saying their dishwashers scratch their glasses - and these are newer dishwashers than our late Zanussi. Neither that one, or the new one, in any way scratch the glasses.

We use Fairy all in one tablets, no salt, no rinse-aid or anything else - and I genuinely didn't realise that anyone still got scratched glassware from putting it into a dishwasher.

So - does your dishwasher scratch your glassware? I am genuinely curious.
Mood:: 'curious' curious
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posted by [identity profile] at 08:18pm on 05/09/2013
Nope, I've never had a dishwasher scratch my glasses, and trust me, I have had some cheap-ass dishwashers :)
posted by [identity profile] at 08:49pm on 05/09/2013
I know it used to be a problem years ago - and in the kitchen at our head-office there are glasses that seem to have suffered from the dishwasher - but I was really surprised to hear someone saying it was a problem in her new Bosche one.

I do wonder if it really is, or whether she has simply kept not putting them into it because she thinks it will scratch them as she came across it as a problem 20 years ago...
jerusha: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] jerusha at 08:42pm on 05/09/2013
We use a rinse agent in our dishwasher to avoid a film on the glasses, since we have very hard water here. But I don't think I remember noticing that our glasses were getting scratched.
posted by [identity profile] at 08:56pm on 05/09/2013
We have soft water - so with the 3 in one tablets we don't need anything else - which is good!

I know dishwashers of old, or rather the old detergents and salt etc, scratched glasses - but I am beginning to think my two colleagues are either very unlucky, or have just avoided putting their glasses in because they have been told they will get scratched -and not risked it!
posted by [identity profile] at 08:46pm on 05/09/2013
As we never use the dishwasher and I - as actual dishwasher - haven't scratched anything - I can't help you.
posted by [identity profile] at 09:00pm on 05/09/2013
S2C used to wash ours - but he decided he was happy to let the electrical one have the job!
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posted by [identity profile] at 08:53pm on 05/09/2013
I bought some cheap dish-washing tablets one week in a bid to save a little money and they left my glasses looking scratched. I went back to my Finish tablets and the "scratches" washed off, so I'm assuming it was some kind of residue from the cheap tablets.
posted by [identity profile] at 09:15pm on 05/09/2013
I think, many years ago, some of the detergent powders did scratch - but I'm sure you are right and it might be that they have just had residue on them - and then been convinced dishwashers still scratch so don't put their glasses in.

I really couldn't believe they actually still got their glasses scratched.
posted by [identity profile] at 09:00pm on 05/09/2013
Residue, yes (depends on which brand products I use and I've given up on the cheap ones because those are the culprits)...but actual scratches? Not that I've noticed.
We have a Miele that is about 5 years old and it is the best machine I've ever had except for one thing. My dishes fit better in the machine prior to this one. I should have taken a plate when we bought the newest one...brilliant idea you had!
posted by [identity profile] at 09:18pm on 05/09/2013
I do remember glasses being quite badly scratched by dishwashers years ago - but not for a long time.

We have a Miele washer/drier which is excellent - we'd have been happy to buy the Miele dishwasher... if the plates had fitted better!
posted by [identity profile] at 09:04pm on 05/09/2013
Mine only scratches the glasses if he's in a hurry and uses the Brillo pad by mistake
posted by [identity profile] at 09:26pm on 05/09/2013

S2C used to do quite a lot of ours - but not all of them - and so the first dishwasher was my idea and he reckoned we didn't need it. But he soon decided he might cope with loading it...
gillo: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] gillo at 09:13pm on 05/09/2013
Yes, much of our glassware is scratched. It's not so bad now we use Finish all-in-one, but the cheap IKEA glasses do show marks.
posted by [identity profile] at 09:29pm on 05/09/2013
Hmm - I will now assume that the two in question have cheap glasses!
posted by [identity profile] at 09:23pm on 05/09/2013
Good to hear D-d is enjoying herself.

My Bosch dishwasher scratched glasses. My son has it now. I have a Technics one now and it doesn't scratch. It also has an adjustable height top shelf in case of big plates or tall saucepans. I also use Fairy all in one. I was sent a free sample of the latest Finish tablets and they were not as good. I bought a backup box of cheap dishwasher tablets, Tesco's own, just for emergencies, and used one recently. It was as good as Fairy! I was very surprised.
Edited Date: 2013-09-05 09:25 pm (UTC)
posted by [identity profile] at 09:33pm on 05/09/2013
Aha! The person who was most convinced that all dishwashers scratch was someone with a fairly new Bosch.

The new version of the Zanussi has an adjustable height top shelf so the lady in the shop was sure it would be just right. No - the top position appears to be the same as the old fixed height top shelf in the previous one - even in the upper position it pinged the top of the plates - both she and I were really surprised, to be honest.
kathyh: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] kathyh at 09:29pm on 05/09/2013
Our dishwasher, both him and it, has never scratched a glass, but I am pretty careful which glasses I put in the mechanical dishwasher.

We have the same problem with some of our plates!
posted by [identity profile] at 09:39pm on 05/09/2013
I was careful when I first got one - until I realised the cheap glasses weren't scratched so put the wine glasses in as well. And it seems as if there is no problem with this new, cheap, dishwasher either.

It is weird how some plates just stand at the wrong angle - we used to put them into the old one 'backwards' so they were almost lying down - but, of course, they then took up so much space that you could only put 3 in at most.

The answer is definitely to take a plate when you need to replace it!
posted by [identity profile] at 09:55pm on 05/09/2013
I'm sure D-d will soon feel totally at home in Guernsey, and make lots of new friends.

I haven't got a dishwasher, so.... Congratulations on your new one.
posted by [identity profile] at 10:02pm on 05/09/2013
She sounds as if she is going to have a good time.

And I am rather attached to having a dishwasher these days - I would be lost without it these days.
posted by [identity profile] at 10:14pm on 05/09/2013
Well, you've met mine. A Miele with the slim cutlery tray at the top. The next basket down is adjustable, and, cleverly, you can make one side higher than the other - handy if I want to put the preserving pan in. I was about to type maslin pan and then wondered if that worked other than in English English - anyone know?
Oh, just remembered your question! Glasses go in - well except for a handful of very expensive ones - and I put in soda glass, pressed glass, inexpensive crystal - the whole range. Nothing shows any signs of scratching. I have exceedingly soft water and use Finish Quantum tablets. They seem to suit the machine as I can use the quick 40 deg C / 44 minute programme. If I use the cheapo Co-op tablets I need a longer wash at a higher temp AND have to rinse things more thoroughly before they go in!
I love my Miele - and was probably persuaded to buy it by your ecstatic account of getting your w-d.
posted by [identity profile] at 10:34pm on 05/09/2013
We would have got a Miele but we need the 45cm rather than the 60cm - and the smaller one doesn't have the same baskets. Mind you this Baumatic seems to be perfectly adequate.

I really thought it was more likely that the colleagues feared their glasses will scratch than that they actually do, these days - but then the person who was most emphatic has a Bosch - and Binky says her Bosch actually did scratch the glasses - so maybe Bosch is the problem!
posted by [identity profile] at 10:37pm on 05/09/2013
Even with a water softener, good detergent, a fairly nice dishwasher, our well water is hard enough that my glassware will eventually "etch" and get cloudy. So I just plan for replacement glasses every 6 months or so. I can get 6 for $2 at Walmart so hardly a hardship. I simply wash the stemware by hand.

I ran into the same problem with new plates not standing upright in the dishwasher... so I have to wash them by hand as well. Next time I buy a dishwasher, I'm going to take one of those plates in with me like you did.
posted by [identity profile] at 10:48pm on 05/09/2013
Every six months?!!! Your water must be even harder than London (UK). Probably off the scale! What does it taste like?
posted by [identity profile] at 10:44pm on 05/09/2013
I wouldn't say mine scratched them, but it does make some glasses go cloudy.
posted by [identity profile] at 12:12pm on 06/09/2013

It looks as if the problem is more related to how hard the water is, than anything else - looking at the 'water hardness' map of the country you are in a hard water area, too.

Which would imply that my colleague who is most convinced that her glasses get scratched and go opaque either has a small pocket of hard water on our soft water island - or is still adding salt even though she doesn't need it, or something.
posted by [identity profile] at 11:01pm on 05/09/2013
Never heard of that happening. How would it get scratched in the dishwasher?
While on the topic of dishwashers, about a year ago, our detergents were changed to an environmentally-friendly low phosphate formula which leaves white residue on the inside of the dishwasher and on most of the dishes. Argh. I've tried vinegar, citric acid, and rinse agents, but nothing helps.
posted by [identity profile] at 12:25pm on 06/09/2013
The descriptions 'clouded' and 'etched' are cropping up, too. I am coming to the conclusion that it is a problem in hard water areas, possibly to do with the extra softeners that are needed, or possibly something else...

But it seems less common that it used to be.

The residue would annoy me, too. Fortunately we are still able to use Fairy!
posted by [identity profile] at 11:12pm on 05/09/2013
An excellent idea to bring a plate with you to make sure that they fit under the top rack! The one I bought some years back had an adjustable top rack. It worked beautifully. As for glasses getting scratched, that is most likely because they are rubbing up against something else and getting scratched from the friction rather than the dishwasher detergent, unless the water is so hard that lime and other such elements that leave deposits in hot water heaters, hoses, etc. develop granules that can scratch the glasses.
posted by [identity profile] at 12:35pm on 06/09/2013
One of the ones I tried had an adjustable top shelf - and in the top position the rotating arm still hit the plates! The new one has an adjustable basket, too, but this one is fine with the upper position.

It appears the 'etching' problem is related to living in a hard water area more than anything else.

You end up with glasses that look like this


It is not a residue - the glass is permanently damaged. We have quite a few in the cupboard at our head office - they have been in and out of a fairly old dishwasher for years - and it seems the cleaning staff refill detergent, rinse aid, salt - everything the instruction book said when it was first bought. Whereas those of us who are lazier and use the 3 in 1 without added salt etc. and a modern washer that doesn't get quite so hot, don't seem to get the problem.
posted by [identity profile] at 11:34pm on 05/09/2013
How clever to ensure that your plates fit!
posted by [identity profile] at 12:36pm on 06/09/2013
I am really glad that I did - everything fits so well, now!
posted by [identity profile] at 12:07am on 06/09/2013
My understanding is that scratching or "etching" of glasses is caused by hard water, not by the quality of the dishwasher or even the kind of detergent you use. We have very hard water, and we've had four dishwashers die on us in the 20 years we've lived in this house (no idea whether those two facts are related). So last time, we bought an expensive Miele dishwasher with its own water softening system. Every month or so, we pour in a box of special salt. We also use special Miele brand tabs *and* rinse agent. We're mostly still using the old, cloudy glasses, but the new glasses my husband bought are still pretty clear, so maybe it's working!
posted by [identity profile] at 12:41pm on 06/09/2013
Yes - it looks as if the consensus is the main culprit is hard water - but then that wouldn't account for the damage done to the glasses at our head office where there is a pretty old dishwasher, but very soft water.

So I think a contributory factor might be the salt - as it seems when they first got that dishwasher, because almost no-one had one at home, the cleaners slavishly followed the instructions and added rinse-aid and salt - even though, we know now, they probably didn't need to.

I'm a real Miele fan - but their narrow dishwasher actually had the plate-pinging problem!
posted by [identity profile] at 12:19am on 06/09/2013
My dishwasher joined the Choir Invisible last week.

It started making thumping noises and I heard my son yell "well that's not good." I ran into the kitchen and saw black smoke pouring out around the top.

But I don't think it ever scratched any glasses.
posted by [identity profile] at 12:44pm on 06/09/2013
Oh dear - definitely not good!

the glass scratching seems to be a bit if a patchy phenomenon - I'm sure my colleagues are worrying about something that is not likely to happen these days. Well apart from the one with the Bosch - they seem to be inclined to 'etch' glasses.
posted by [identity profile] at 12:22am on 06/09/2013
I found that my cheap Ikea glasses don't show signs of being scratched, but the old lead crystal ones do, I've completely ruined some nice Victorian goblets. Hence I think it's at least in part to do with the composition of the glass as much as the dishwasher.

What it will do of course is gradually erase the gilding on decorated plates. Though I've only once put in a patterned plate and had it come out blank! My fault, it was a hand-painted decorative plate and I hadn't realised the decoration was over the glaze.
posted by [identity profile] at 12:52pm on 06/09/2013
Fortunately(?) I don't have any good old glasses.

But I recognise the plate problem. I actually picked up some free decorated plates at the recycler so that I wouldn't be upset as the pattern slowly disappears! I've never managed to strip one in one go, though... yet!
posted by [identity profile] at 02:42am on 06/09/2013
I have a probably 15 year old, fairly inexpensive dishwasher. I've never had it scratch glasses, ever. I use liquid dishwasher detergent from Costco, so not super high-end either. I do run it through empty with vinegar once in a while, and I don't put in lead crystal or anything antique. I've never used a rinse agent. My glasses are from I think Crate & Barrel; not terrible spendy but not target/walmart-cheap.

I've lived places with hard water and had them leave deposits, but never scratches!
posted by [identity profile] at 05:00pm on 06/09/2013
My glasses are a mixture of 'free from M&S', cheap from Tesco, and 'better class from Denby' - and they are all fine. I really thought that the advent of new detergents like yours had stopped the 'etching' of glassware - but it looks as if it does still happen for some people.

Happily you and I are not amongst them!
posted by (anonymous) at 02:49am on 06/09/2013
Well we have a Kenmore and the only thing I don't like about it is the cutlery basket tips if you don't wedge it in with a small plate, otherwise everything fits that I have tried in it. We use Finish all in one tabs and prewash with regular powder Finish and so far no cloudy, etched or scratched glasses and they are not very expensive ones either.

So pleased that d-d is settling in at her new posting and is making friends with her co-workers, having agreeable people to work with makes any job a lot easier!

re Tindome's thinky thoughts, did the Valar want Legolas to start a chain migration to Valinor for the Sindarin and Sylvan elves of M.E.?

posted by [identity profile] at 05:06pm on 06/09/2013
The 'etching' seems to be related to hardness of water, possibly detergent (I think it must be that the salt used as a softener causes the problem), and that Bosch machines are prone to it. Something I read suggested it might also be related to the washing temperature - higher temps tend to add to the effect of the salt, perhaps.

D-d seems very cheerful - and I'm betting she is having better weather than we are at home - it is bucketing down here right now.

Tindómë is beginning to think it is a distinct possibility - although there is no guarantee that she is right, of course!
posted by [identity profile] at 08:50am on 06/09/2013
Some of my glasses are slightly cloudy - we have very hard water and I probably need to top up the salt more often. I don't use expensive glasses, and pretty much accept it as the cost I pay for the convenience of a dish washer.
posted by [identity profile] at 05:08pm on 06/09/2013
I think it does seem to be the amount of salt required in hard water areas. And that the ones in our head office, badly clouded despite our soft water, might well be because the instructions say fill the salt regularly - so the cleaning staff do.

Mind you, if we did have hard water, I would take exactly the same course as you do.
ext_11988: made by lmbossy (Default)
posted by [identity profile] at 11:17am on 06/09/2013
I find cheaper glasses do end up looking 'milky' after a while but we have incredibly hard water so end up with salt and rinse aid to get good clean streak free glasses. Overall though I'd say we get very little damage. We do get through dishwashers though - we're on our fifth!!
posted by [identity profile] at 05:11pm on 06/09/2013
It does look as if it is a hard-water/salt related problem - but that my colleague who complained that hers did it badly, and Binky, both have soft water but Bosch dishwashers!

I would guess the hard water might be one of the contributory factors in getting through dishwashers, too. It will be interesting to see if the cheap Baumatic lasts as well as our Zanussi did.
posted by [identity profile] at 03:44pm on 06/09/2013
I've had no problems with scratched glassware - some of the decorations on the cheap stuff are wearing off (though they already faded when I did them by hand).

The plates that are too big... I have that problem as well, which is ironic, since they're Ikea plates in an Ikea dishwasher *g*
posted by [identity profile] at 05:15pm on 06/09/2013
some of the decorations on the cheap stuff are wearing off

We've got that with a couple of glasses with pictures that have been gifts to D-d that have faded almost beyond recognition.

As for the Ikea plates - that is just silly. But it is interesting how many people have said, in comments, that they have the same problem. It would be a good idea if the manufacturers of both plates and washers got together on this!
posted by [identity profile] at 08:55pm on 06/09/2013
This has been an interesting conversation. I have a Bosch, which I am very satisfied with, and have had no problems. However, I do not put lead crystal glassware in to the D/W. The manual warns they will become clouded. I prefer to wash delicates by hand. Our water originates from limestone, which is, I suspect, hard water. I always buy specially treated water for the iron, for this reason.
posted by [identity profile] at 10:15pm on 06/09/2013
I only wash baking tins and my wok by hand - because they take up so much space in the dishwasher! But none of my glasses have ever gone cloudy - although, as Kortirion says, it is not good for my assorted gilded side plates.

It is really odd that some people still seem to get the dreaded etching, whilst others have never had it at all.
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